Curse

Cebe · Feb 02, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Nice theory, but that just doesn't work. If you're halfway competent you should be taking 3 PvE skills. That + SoLS + SS means you only have 3 skill slots to work with. There are far too many good curse skills to take to be able to multi-task into resto.

Yes, your point is well made, but you're still replacing potential Curses skill slots with ... other skills, be they PvE-Only or Secondary, it doesn't matter. The point I was trying to make was that you don't need a bar full of curses skills to be effective.

I usually forget about using PvE skills in builds, for no particularly valid reason. I resent the fact that you're only "halfway competent" if you don't use PvE-Only skills. On the contrary, one could argue that you're only "halfway competent" if you feel you need PvE skills. Sweeping statements such as that are unjust, unneccesary, and prove nothing.

Lourens brings in the idea of Wards on an N/E...I've used this on a hero in the past and it works well. You only need 4-5 Curses spells before the first one you cast is ready to be cast again. The last skill slots are just fluff. Why not throw on some Wards for some Fire-and-Forget party defense?

Calista Blackblood · Feb 02, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Lourens brings in the idea of Wards on an N/E...I've used this on a hero in the past and it works well. You only need 4-5 Curses spells before the first one you cast is ready to be cast again. The last skill slots are just fluff. Why not throw on some Wards for some Fire-and-Forget party defense?

No reason to not do it,but like everything depends on the area and function.Taking Herta(henchman) where you can is almost always going to be better though(unless you really need to compress bars and party slots).In NF her [stoning] is easily triggered by [enfeebling blood] which should be on every curse bar.And in EotN her build is far sexier with [ward against elements] +[ward against melee].

Also don't forget [ward of stability].Your party will love it in areas with an abundance of kd's like Talus Chute.When I vanquished it I ran [ward against melee] + [ward of stability] with few problems.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 02, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

If you've managed to endure the stupid polymock quests, the Summon Naga Shaman guy spams stoning too.

Xenomortis · Feb 02, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

If you've managed to endure the stupid polymock quests, the Summon Naga Shaman guy spams stoning too.

But is quite a weak minion and takes up a skill slot.
Although I suppose the constant knockdown when used with Enfeebling Blood is worth something. Might be worth bringing along if you have no other knockdown method and a PvE skill slot to spare.

Improvavel · Feb 02, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

[[Spiteful Spirit] is a filler skill on a curses bar. Can easily be replaced by any other elite and you wont notice a difference, unless you are relying on it to kill.
It will put some pressure on some low importance enemy and if the enemy mob was well aggro'ed might do some nice AoE damage. But so will [[Mark of pain] or [[splinter weapon (pve)].

That is why using [[arcane echo] to power more [[spiteful spirit]s is useless and most of you will agree on that.

[[Shadow of fear] is a better cover hex than [[Reckless haste].

[[Enfeebling blood (pve)], [[barbs] and [[mark of pain] are the true stars of a curses bar. SS is there to make you have an elite unless your team needs you to run something else like some hex removal.

Xenomortis · Feb 02, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

[[Shadow of fear] is a better cover hex than [[Reckless haste].

And your reasoning for that is?
Shadow of fear may prevent more damage than reckless haste, but RH will cause more damage from SS (ok, it won't in HM) - shadow of fear only reduces damage from SS.
SS isn't junk, there's no elite in the curses line that I would recommend replacing it with
[Assassin's Promise] is a bit special.

Just because SS isn't always a major damage dealer doesn't mean you should bring skills that weaken it further.

Improvavel · Feb 02, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

[Assassin's Promise] is a bit special.

Just because SS isn't always a major damage dealer doesn't mean you should bring skills that weaken it further.

Skills like [[Expel Hexes] and other silver bullets also can take the spot.

My point was there is no point spending slots on buffing something that isn't the main focus of your build.

Xenomortis · Feb 02, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

My point was there is no point spending slots on buffing something that isn't the main focus of your build.

But bringing a skill that just degenerates it is stupid. Reckless Haste isn't brilliant and has limited synergy, but it works with SS. Shadow of Fear doesn't.

If you're not bringing SS, bring something else over Reckless Haste. If you are bringing SS, at least don't bring another skill that just weakens it. SS is a good damage dealer, just because it's overshadowed by MoP doesn't mean you should bring skills to reduce any potential it has.

This thread is just running circles now...

Improvavel · Feb 03, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

This thread is just running circles now...

No it isn't.

I just see the role of curses necro in a different way.

I think the main concern of the curses necro is shutting down the enemy mobs with skills like [[enfeebling blood], [[shadow of fear], [[reckless haste] etc.

Then it is to provide assistance with killing with skills like [[barbs], [[mark of pain], [[weaken armor], [[splinter weapon (pve)] or pve skills like [[finish him], [[you move like a dwarf], [[ebon vanguard assassin support] or [[great dwarf weapon].

Only after that I would worry about [[Spiteful Spirit] and it cand still be great then, in a drag out fight, providing additional pressure.

So in that role I would rather have [[shadow of fear] in my bar. By the time I would cast [[Spiteful Spirit] you can probably cast it on someone without [[shadow of fear] or even a caster or whatever.

Now, if your main concern is getting the most possible mileage from you SS then [[reckless haste] is better.

AtomicMew · Feb 03, 2009, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

2. I disagree that a competent player should be bringing 3 PvE skills. If they can think of other skills that complement their build better, then the PvE skills become unnecessary.

RARELY happens. I'm sure there are a few builds that are better off without 3 pve skills, but considering how OP they are, it's very, very rare. It's certainly not the case for an SS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I resent the fact that you're only "halfway competent" if you don't use PvE-Only skills. On the contrary, one could argue that you're only "halfway competent" if you feel you need PvE skills. Sweeping statements such as that are unjust, unneccesary, and prove nothing.

Scrub reasoning ftl. Enjoy being subpar.

I also agree with others who have stated that [Assassin's promise] > [spiteful spirit]. I just tried out my SS again and it felt very underpowered compared to [Assassin's promise]. Both MoP nuker and discordway caller produce far superior damage in a decent hero/hench setup. The only time I'll play SS nowadays is in cryway teams.

Chthon · Feb 03, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

OK,

1. Yes, AP is better than SS for curse builds. AP-MoP is one of the two strongest offensive builds in the game, bar none. Discordway is mediocre, but still faster than SS in most cases.

2. Despite being only second-best, SS is still a very strong skill. A very large majority of the mobs in GW can be killed by SS alone, given time. SS is still one of the best ways for a competent player to take a bad PUG and guarantee its success. So let's not be knocking SS too much, mmmkay?

3. As for how to improve your SS build, start by scrapping darned near every skill on it.
Let's begin afresh. SS builds must have SS. Duh. Add Reckless Haste, since it boosts SS damage and protects from melee. Add Enfeebling Blood, since no curse build should leave home without it. Unless your team lacks both minions and physicals, add Barbs for killing single targets. I'd also suggest MoP, which is still strong if used judiciously, even without AP. If you brought Barbs, Vanguard Assassin is a nice choice too. Necrosis is also good for single-target killing. Finally, Finish Him is good on any character who can afford the energy cost; GDW is good at high rank, again if you can afford the cost; and Weaken Armor isn't too shabby. (And of course, rez or rez scrolls for every build.)

A couple of things I wouldn't do: Awaken the Blood and Arcane Echo are often used to boost SS damage, but AtB isn't worth the attribute points, and AE isn't worth the energy or cast time. People here have said no SoF/Meekness. I don't entirely agree. There's nothing wrong with SS and SoF/Meekness in the same build so long as they aren't on the same monster. That said, you don't strike me as someone particularly well-practiced at curses. So, I'd say no SoF/Meekness for now, and maybe try it later. Finally, someone suggested Splinter, which is a really bad idea. You don't have enough attribute points for that. Splinter belongs on a buff-bitch, not a curser (and even then it might not earn a spot if GDW is available.)

[Edit: I'd like to point at that you would be well served to take Xenomortis's post #14 to heart.]

Improvavel · Feb 03, 2009, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Finally, someone suggested Splinter, which is a really bad idea. You don't have enough attribute points for that.

You need a 12+1+1/12+1 split? A 12+1+1/8+1/10 or a 11+1+1/10+1/10 isn't good enough?

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

2. I disagree that a competent player should be bringing 3 PvE skills. If they can think of other skills that complement their build better, then the PvE skills become unnecessary.

That is like saying the competent players runs around with starter armor in HM and not get killed.

All that matters in PvE is the speed of killing mobs while staying alive. Nobody really cares if you wear starter armor or use PvE skills or not. That is how the game is designed nowadays. The game rewards speed, not whether you bring PvE skills or not.

It is sad, but that is how it is. The game was alot more challenging 3+ years ago.

MagmaRed · Feb 03, 2009, 03:38 AM // 03:38

[awaken the blood] and [strip enchantment] can both benefit an SS build. Neither skills need a huge investment in Blood to make them worth using. If you want support healing, Strip Enchantment provides some of that, but Parastic Bond would be the main source. You shouldn't need to be healing yourself often unless your Monks suck.... at which point you need to get new Monks. I personally find Reckless Haste awesome for NM and Enfeebling Blood for HM.

Other options to consider would revolve around PvE skills. Necrosis would be top of the list, but many others could play in. Since I am providing hexes and/or conditions when running my SS build, Sin Support works great. Since the Sin summoned uses Iron Palm, this gives you a knockdown as well as some more damage. But the most useful self heal skill would be [signet of lost souls]. True, it requires the target to be below 50% health, but this isn't a skill to keep you alive, it is a skill to help your Monk keep you alive. The energy gain from it is also very useful.

Chthon · Feb 03, 2009, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

A 12+1+1/8+1/10 or a 11+1+1/10+1/10 isn't good enough?

Absolutely not. 9 SR is not enough. Nor is 11+1+1 Curses.

On a side note, curses really should be run at 16, not 14. The double-multiplier effect on both MoP and SS results in more than enough deferential in damage output to justify the hp loss.

Osi Ri S · Feb 03, 2009, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

[awaken the blood] and [strip enchantment] can both benefit an SS build. Neither skills need a huge investment in Blood to make them worth using.

By Urals Hammer >>> AtB

Improvavel · Feb 03, 2009, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Absolutely not. 9 SR is not enough. Nor is 11+1+1 Curses.

On a side note, curses really should be run at 16, not 14. The double-multiplier effect on both MoP and SS results in more than enough deferential in damage output to justify the hp loss.

I would rather have more 75 hp and throw a rank 10 [[Splinter weapon (pve)@10] on some physical.

Mobs are a lot easier to control when they are dead or with their asses on the floor.

Xenomortis · Feb 03, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That is like saying the competent players runs around with starter armor in HM and not get killed.

No, you've completely missed my point. Mabye I wasn't clear enough, but I resented the use of the word should here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

If you're halfway competent you should be taking 3 PvE skills.

A competent player may not feel the need for 3 PvE skills, but usually they benefit the build better than other skills. Sometimes however, that isn't the case. They may not also fit into your particular playing style and if you're playing for fun (which is the point of a game), you want a build that is both good and easy and comfortable to play.
Obviously for some areas, optimal builds become much more important and require you to learn how to play them, but such is the way of things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

[awaken the blood] and [strip enchantment] can both benefit an SS build.

Not as much as other skills. Awaken the Blood only provides a small buff to Curses and at low ranks in blood magic, it lasts only a small amount of time. Not worth a skill slot.
Same goes for Strip Enchantment, it's better replaced by other skills from the Curses line (ie: Rend Enchantments). If you really want self healing, Parasitic Bond should be all you bring as a cover hex. Insidious Parasite provides a bit, but not much worthwhile aside from protecting you from the odd melee attacker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I just see the role of curses necro in a different way.

I think the main concern of the curses necro is shutting down the enemy mobs with skills like [[enfeebling blood], [[shadow of fear], [[reckless haste] etc.

I suppose this is fair enough. I generally take the view that it would be best to boost any damage they can do, as they can deal stupid amounts whilst aiding allies at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Absolutely not. 9 SR is not enough. Nor is 11+1+1 Curses.

On a side note, curses really should be run at 16, not 14. The double-multiplier effect on both MoP and SS results in more than enough deferential in damage output to justify the hp loss.

9 SR can be sufficient depending on your build. If you're throwing expensive hexes as much as possible, then 13 may become much more useful.
Curses at 16 is a bit unecessary and 15 is usually much better (1 att point is not usually worth -40 hp).
Oddly, despite feeling and knowing this, I run a Sup Curses rune...

AtomicMew · Feb 03, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Discordway is mediocre, but still faster than SS in most cases.

That is just so wrong lol. Name a faster hero/hench setup or 2 man setup. Discordway is pretty much the fastest hero setup in the game and can do all of PvE except for certain elite areas.

High single target dmg, high AoE dmg (MoP, MS, etc) how can you possibly say discordway is mediocre?

Lourens · Feb 03, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That is just so wrong lol. Name a faster hero/hench setup or 2 man setup. Discordway is pretty much the fastest hero setup in the game and can do all of PvE except for certain elite areas.

High single target dmg, high AoE dmg (MoP, MS, etc) how can you possibly say discordway is mediocre?

4 enemy monks you cast with another N/Me 4 x SS (18Curses) in lets say hardmode and they dont have hex removal thats about 4x41x4dps = 656

You need 15 discord necros to do the same , [Discord] 1 sec cast + 2 sec recharge